Ultimate Bodhicitta According to Kalachakra

These teachings were recorded at the Rimé Institute in Belgrave, Australia on May 07, 2015

So tonight’s topic, the absolute Bodhicitta. I just remind you, always, when we say Buddha nature, tathagatagarbha, and Kalachakra and the absolute Bodhicitta, the absolute truth, the most sacred truth, everything same meaning. Same truth, but just different aspects of qualities. We have different names and different cause. So for this reason we have different names and we have the meaning of the names and then we have…..

However, when we comes to the ultimate truth, all this divine qualities, everything there. So why we using this Bodhicitta or such and such because our human communication and our language. Love and kindness, compassion or Bodhicitta, they are good qualities and even some super qualities, in even the relative level, in relative truth. So that’s why we calling them names of them and we change a little bit to say the absolute Bodhicitta, the ultimate Bodhicitta. Because they are ultimate, because they absolute. They are not relative, they are not conventional. That’s why we are saying.

But tonight hopefully we can make the meaning of the Kalachakra, the ultimate meaning of the Kalachakra, the ultimate meaning of the Bodhicitta, the ultimate meaning of the Buddha nature, this sacred truth, the absolute truth, everything we try to make, to make ourselves understand the same meaning. And why called different aspects, different meanings.

So we are going to start from Kalachakra. So our main topic is Bodhicitta, the ultimate Bodhicitta, but we start from Kalachakra. So Kalachakra has different levels of Kalachakra, different demonstrations of Kalachakra. So we start from basic. So we are going to start external Kalachakra. So Kalachakra means, if somebody asks you “what it means Kalachakra?”, probably the shortest answer you can say, the whole universe. The whole universe is Kalachakra. Means this whole universe. And then of course different people have different interpretation of the universe, what is the whole universe. But if more somebody have a little bit more precise understanding, for these people maybe is more precise to say, there is external Kalachakra, there is internal Kalachakra and there’s additional Kalachakra. And the external Kalachakra is the external universe and the internal Kalachakra is the internal universe. The additional Kalachakra means the divine enlightened mandala of Kalachakra.


So let’s start from the external Kalachakra. So what does kala mean? What chakra means? Sanskrit word. Kala means time, chakra means wheel. So wheel of time. So let’s understood why external, the whole universe is wheel of time. Try to understand that first. What means time, what time means for us. Think about this for a minute. Time means always changing or never changing, what means, time means. Of course the model of the time, the clock, never stop, and always go, always moving. If stops, that means something wrong. That means no time anymore. But even in our concept, the time is always changing and moving, yes? Time cannot be in our concept, time means sit there. So even we have saying time never wait you, right? Ok, in general, time means constant changing and impermanent , yes? Time is never permanence ok. So always impermanent and constant changing.

So then why Kalachakra says wheel of time? Ok the external Kalachakra, the whole universe right, the whole external universe, and then why you call them wheel of time? Because the whole external universe always constantly changing, everything. Can you of think anything in this universe is not changing? So we have very good support with the science. The science knows everything is changing. I think I heard something, 70 billion times in one second or something, ok. So, if 70 billion in one second changing, can human detect that. That is really impermanence. So that’s why I think Kalachakra calls time. So Kalachakra time, concepts of time is much bigger than we think the time. So we thinking of the time is very small, particularly idea we made up in our mind. But if we think of the whole universe, constant changing and impermanent is time, that’s more bigger isn’t it. That’s more bigger and accurate isn’t it. So that is Kalachakra talking about.

And then why say wheel? So wheel, think of wheel, any kind of wheel. Does wheel have a beginning and end? Wheel never had a particular beginning and end ok. Wheel means round and even. So that means there is no beginning and end, you know. If pieces of like that, we can have begin and end. If tall, short everything is relative then they have beginning and end. But the wheel you don’t have beginning or end. So this whole external universe, yes we understand constantly changing and impermanence, everything, we perfectly understand this.

Does that mean disappear all the time? And then funny (? 38.03) it never end, never end as like wheel. Small things we, when we changes, decay, burnt, crushed, for our very limited five senses try to look at, we think is vanished. But each particle if you think of, they never vanish. Even you burn, whatever you do it is they turns something else. Maybe the most smallest particle, that refine, even maybe never changes. The electron and neutrons, the names of the particles, they always be the seam isn’t it. Are they changing? As far as we know, as far as science know, there are many things don’t change, all the time there. But that’s only our limitation. Our limited perception, even science they try to use something else to help their perception, to detect, but still is limited. But, so there is never end, as like wheel. The whole universe never end you know. When we say big bang, that’s not beginning, that’s as far as we know the beginning (laughs). So we try to calculate how this universe, how long will be. Is not whole universe isn’t it, is just small galaxy, even not galaxy, small solar system, how long will be, everything, again assumptions. So basically, Kalachakra saying, there is no end, always wheel, like wheel. So this wheel and the time, inevitable. It is not inseparable. They always together. So that is wheel of time. Ok? And then, that is external Kalachakra, wheel of time or you can say the external wheel of time.


So what is internal Kalachakra? Then we come to individual sentient beings. So isn’t that….somebody maybe can argue, “isn’t that all sentient beings not include universe, what you talking about?” We talking about from our point of view. We are as sentient being, as human being and our point of view, we are the inner, something not us is external, we talking about that. So we are the inner Kalachakra.

So why they say inner Kalachakra? Because Kalachakra tantra describes the whole structure of our body. The whole structure of our mind, everything is correspondences of the external universe. So we looking and say “oh the whole universe is so big and bah bah bah.”, but actually this is universe, our body structure and you know our channels and the contents, what our body contains, and how our body functions and then how affect our minds, how our mind emotions, everything how it functions. That is really more the universe for us. Because this big universe you really can’t work on, but this universe you can work, you can train. But if you work on this universe, you can influence the outer universe. So that’s this is why this is really, really universe compared to outer universe. Especially if you are really high practitioner and if you doing very well into the universe, you can make quite big influence on outer universe. And specifically if you want to, particularly part, if you want to work, you can do that too. Because everything have correspondence in your body, in your chakra’s, in your channels. Ok?

But this inner universe also is constantly changing. Is constantly change all the time and impermanent, yes. Exactly same as the outer universe. Even outside time we have how many days in a year, how many days in a month. Everything we have, how our body functions, how we breathe, all correspondence, ok. So again same thing, another wheel, wheel of time.

So training our inner universe we have much more chance, rather than you focus outer universe, like scientists. Scientists what they doing, always focus outer universe and they fascinating and try to discover many things and try to get answers we don’t have answer. So if you are a practitioner, especially tantrayana practitioners, you always focus your internal universe. So you have much more chance. Basically is more practical, ok. So that is practitioner‘s job, practitioner’s duty, practitioner’s goal.

For this reason, the Kalachakra refers…(@ 46.51 uses Tib term). So refers the compassion and the emptiness and compassion, they referred, you know. Why they say this? So we have to now work out, what to do with emptiness and compassion. So go back to the outer universe. The outer universe, everything is constantly changing and impermanent remember. There is nothing, as far as we know, even 70 billion times in one second, cannot stay. There is nothing to stable in the world, why? If you look at what is wrong with. Why there is nothing is true, nothing is permanent, what is wrong with. Then you realise emptiness. How? Because emptiness means the absence of true existence right? So that means this absence of true existence and what is appears for us, this constantly changing, compare them, which one is more truth? Of course the emptiness, the absence of true existence.

You know, if you thinking steps by steps then you know. For instance, if we say this stick is strong, solid, no space, is that true or this, all the particles changing all the time, moving all the time, plenty space between them. Which one more true? Of course the second one is true. Everyone agree that, even if we don’t see this way, but we still know is not that true. The problem we don’t remind ourselves and we don’t take this practises as our spiritual path, that’s the problem. So we waste our knowledge actually, but if we applied it, that is really good for us, good contribution, the science discovery for us as practitioners’. So which one truth? The more, too much space, a lot of space all the time moving that is unstable and moving. That is the more truth. But if you compare, ok, 70 billion times one second moving, changing, but if…is that permanent? 70….one part of the 70 billion of one second, is that part, that short time is permanent? Then we….we don’t know, but we have to say yes, as far as we know.

Everything we try to work out as far as we know, so we have to say yes. Because we don’t have any answer. Or why like this, we have no idea. Why? (laughs). We have no idea. So the answer, the Buddha answered because is not true, it is illusion. It is illusion, it is not true. There is no true self existing. So that is more truth than 70 billion times, one part of 70 billion times, must be truth. On the other, selflessness, this you know, the absence of true self existence, that is known as emptiness. That is more truth. That’s why Kalachakra referred, say empty. That’s why saying empty. Ok. So know you understand, right?


So now you say we go, “why Kalachakra refer to the compassion, why?” Because compassion, as far as we think, some kind of attitude or feelings. So everything all outer universe and these particles, all this physical, all existence, how can you refer compassion such as emotion. So we have to think of that. So Kalachakra always telling more than what we think. So that’s why according to Kalachakra, perhaps compassion is much more than emotion or attitude. Ok.

So ok, then what compassion made from? Maybe we have to think of that. I’m talking about normal compassion ok. Normal, we know compassion, where come from. What made from? Made from loving kindness. Ok, loving kindness. Love and kindness, “huh ok, what is really love?” In love means feeling open, and warm toward others. Kindness means expression of that love, whatever degree of love. Expression of that. And then compassion is true caring, but if you never opened the mind, never feeling warm toward them, how you really care? You can’t care, so that’s why compassion is higher than love and kindness, ok. You have to understand this way.

Ok, then what is the reality of this, you know like this love and kindness compassion together, what is it really. Together we can call compassion. When we say compassion you included loving kindness, but when we say love and kindness, not necessarily include the compassion. As I explained previously, you know, love, kindness, compassion all of them have a different, like ingredients of the food. And some have much more compassion, and little bit, not so much love, love nature, and some have more love and not much compassion, I said that. But that is not contradicting here. So compassion is much more high so there must be have some ingredients of love and kindness. Without this compassion cannot arise, impossible. The other world (? 56.56), the compassion cannot arise with zero love and kindness, impossible. But love and kindness, some degree of love and kindness can arise before compassion because compassion is more high. Which means you can feel a little bit open, a little bit of warm toward others and you…so you can have expression of this warming heart, but you don’t really genuinely care. You not care enough ok, that means not compassion yet.

So that case, altogether, what is they make? What is the common sense of the love kindness and compassion? Connectedness, connection, the connectedness. You know if you have zero love, zero kindness, zero compassion you cannot connect. I’m not talking about if person, I’m not talking about the other person, how much you receive their love and kindness. How they are perceptive of your love and kindness. That is different story. But from your side, as long as you have love and compassion you connect with this person. Much more than who have no love and compassion, ok. That’s what I’m saying. That’s for sure, so that’s why I’m saying is the connectedness, is the common ground of the loving kindness and the compassion. So connection ok.


So now, how we, what we to do with the wheel, time of wheel. Remember time we said constantly changing, impermanence, why? Because absence of true existing so is emptiness, so more meaning is emptiness. So have wheel constantly, never ending, constant cycle ok. So what that means? Means connected each other, right? All particles and all the universe and change and you know like this and everything, you know, even just think of plant, flower, seed and then the next, next, all grow, everything connect each other. And then even the decay, they are connecting somewhere else. That is wheel. Same thing. Same nature, the connectedness, this connectedness is the loving kindness, compassion nature.

That’s why Kalachakra refers to the loving kindness compassion. So that means whole universe, this two aspects of the really, is how you say, the core aspect, the main aspect…there’s millions aspects the whole universe, but these two, you know, this time and wheel is most central aspect. Or the central nature, that’s why Kalachakra referring to this. Otherwise, why is important to practice compassion. Why important to practice emptiness? Because the true, you know the ultimate nature, toward to we go, even our compassion, limited. Even our realisation and emptiness, all limited. But is 90 billons times better then who has no idea of emptiness.

So that’s why we try to go toward to the truth nature, the Buddha nature. That’s why important, that’s why Kalachakra refers to the emptiness and compassion. So that’s you can say internal Kalachakra practice in general. In general practice you can say, ”oh what is the Kalachakra main focus”, emptiness and compassion. Ok somebody say “oh isn’t that common for Buddhism, every Buddhism you know Mahayana and you know and Vajrayana and every kind of schools and every part of tradition. Isn’t everybody’s practice this loving kindness compassion and emptiness? So why is…nothing is Kalachakra…special huh?” The answer is yes, there is special, why? Because yes, everybody practice, that is true, but how practice and how explain is Kalachakra more superior, always. That’s why Kalachakra tells wheel of time. And known anywhere else, they don’t call wheel of time. Not anywhere else they don’t talk about external Kalachakra. Let’s say guru samaya, external guru samaya, internal guru samaya, you know the additional guru samya, we don’t say that way. You may think “oh, that is different way just little bit explanation, nothing superior or inferior”. But actually it does, ok.


Anyway, so now, now we have to go back, not go back, we go a little bit understanding, the additional Kalachakra. We say this sublime additional Kalachakra or you can say other Kalachakra or you can say the divine Kalachakra or you can say this enlightened Kalachakra mandala. You know mandala means universe remember. Or you can say enlightened Kalachakra universe. When we talking about that, then we not talking about this, our world, our samsaric world anymore. So when we talking about this enlightened universe, and then, we not talking about relative Bodhicitta anymore. We’re not talking about relative compassion anymore. We talking about the ultimate, the absolute compassion, the absolute Bodhicitta, we talking about that.

This Kalachakra, then we talk, many, many things we can talk about, but probably we just talk a little bit of this two aspect of Kalachakra; Kalachakra and vishvamata. This we call the brief word (? 1.05.42) we call, the union of sublime emptiness and the immutable great bliss. In other words we say the union of Kalachakra and vishvamata. And then also still we still talking compassion but this compassion means Bodhicitta, but also this Bodhicitta is absolute Bodhicitta.

Ok, these compassion, what made from? Made from the emptiness remember, the emptiness before we talk about. This and the…..emptiness….what we call? Do you remember before? The emptiness name….before we talk….the possibility, everything. Our totality…..anyway….it’s ok….

(@ 1.08.03 uses Tib term). This inseparable of compassion and emptiness. You know remember at the relative level emptiness and compassion is not the same, never the same. But here, inseparable, becomes same…..(@ 1.08.22 uses Tib term) which means, in relative level, in samsaric level, the three realms always born and changing and decay and die and born again. The whole universe and all sentient beings. But in this, never born, never grow, never decay. There’s no fear, there’s no suffering. And in this universe, in this samsaric universe we have subject and object, separation. In this universe, enlightened universe, in the additional Kalachakra realm, there is no separation, no subject, object. So all union and full. There is no missing anything. Another word, contained everything.

So that means, before impermanent, changing, because of empty remember. So now, instead this, never changing. This time, time means never changing. In samsaric world, time means always changing. In here, time means never changing. Ok never changing means what? Never changing means bliss, not just pleasure or happiness, but bliss. Think of unchanging bliss. That’s we call immutable great bliss. That is the Kalachakra, the ultimate Kalachakra.

This ultimate Kalachakra is the ultimate Bodhicitta. Why? Remember Bodhicitta, desire to save all sentient beings, desire to liberate all sentient beings, desire deliver all sentient beings in the Buddhahood, desire you have all benefits of temporary benefits, ultimate benefits all sentient beings. That is the ultimate relative, that means relative Bodhicitta. Which is perfect, why? Why perfect in samsara? Because you not fear anything. No matter how long you remain in samsara. You enjoy to serve all sentient beings. That’s why perfect in samsara. But here, enlightened Kalachakra world, already fulfilled everything. Already fulfilled every your desire in the relative level. Everything. So that’s why ultimate Bodhicitta. There is ultimate love, ultimate kindness, ultimate compassion, the ultimate Bodhicitta. Everything and never changing, that’s why is immutable bliss.

The aspect of vishvamata, we call…(@ 1.13.19 uses Tib term). So the empty aspect, no no, the appearance aspect, so remember, in samsaric world all is impermanent changing and unstable. Why? Because of the absence of truth. So that’s why we call emptiness. But here, yes, absolutely absence of emptiness, yet have everything there. Yes have everything there, when I say everything, don’t think of samsaric everything, the suffering, no. Every single goodness, every single virtue, every single beneficial use, everything there. So that aspect is called vishvamata….(@ 1.14.38 uses Tib term). So which means, is go beyond physicality, goes beyond emotional mind, limit perception, everything go beyond that. Yet everything shining there and decoration like the best decoration possibility, the best ornamentation of possibility, ornaments of possibility, the best beauty, the ultimate beauty is there, why? Because, what you call, female aspect is vishvamata nature. So the ultimate beauty you could ever imagine and beyond your imagination is there. Ok, that’s why we say….(@ 1.15.39 use Tib term). I don’t know how to explain ok. (laughs)….(@ 1.15.46 uses Tib term). Means aspect of every possibility, the totality, how can you say, you don’t remember? It’s ok. Aspect of everything, ok, every possibility, the totality. That makes sense? Ok. Student – it says, the emptiness possessing the totality of possible appearances. Yes, so that is the vishvamata. So that is ultimate vishvamata.


So, when we say Kalachakra and vishvamata, we see a male and female form. Ordinary male and ordinary female. Maybe not ordinary because sometimes has four heads, 24 arms, (laughs), a little bit controversial, right? A little bit controversial. Why? Because a little bit like human because we are human. We have very, very limited perception so we have to somehow connect with us. Others should have controversial and little bit contradictory as well. Is not only Kalachakra but this tantric deities, yidam deities. They have angry face and the same time passionate actions they doing, how you say, and they have fire rains outside, and they meant to be the most compassionate beings and yet they stepping on somebody and standing on somebody and crushing somebody. So that is little bit controversial. What shows, many, many levels, you know some people usually blames “oh because you know, they are the symbol of your pride, symbol of your jealous, symbol of your ego, crushing your ego.” Yes that is one way explain, but the other way explain, in our world everything is (not??) contradictory. Black can’t be white and white can’t be black and many things. Sweet can’t be salty and salty can’t be sweet and everything so boxes. And they are free from boxes, ok that’s why, that also shows, that’s why controversial, ok.

So now you understand the ultimate Bodhicitta (laughs). So hopefully next week we talk a little bit about, I don’t know, oh six perfections, ok. So any questions?

Student – Is the wisdom and compassion we hope to realise the same as what you spoke about in chod, in mixing the wisdom or emptiness and compassion. They are the same but two different techniques to attain…

(laughs) I even forgot what I talked about in chod, do you remember? You explain more.

Student – In all practices in attaining the emptiness and compassion, are you always talking about the same thing or is each practice trying to develop a different…

Oh, same goal, same goal, but different methods and I can’t remember exactly what I talked about in chod retreat, I completely forgot but, I can guess and…chod is based on prajnaparamita, which means the second unveil of the Buddha, based on this. That is the, main focus, so in that case, more focus the emptiness. The emptiness itself, you know that’s why absence of this emptiness. That’s why so much focus on the selflessness, that’s why they use you know, have to go, have to challenge yourself a lot because of that, you try to get rid of your self cherishing and then the best way you know the selflessness and the realising emptiness, that is the main focussing, so. And Kalachakra practise we…yes we, there is nothing wrong, be focus on emptiness, definitely we need that, because samsara habituated so long and so solid, we consolidate too much in the wrong way. So that’s why of course we need all the time, but we not only challenging way. And we instead kind of like smart way. So that doesn’t mean chod way is not smart ok, but, I don’t know how to say, more gentle way. We doing more gentle way.

Student – chod is more gentle way?

No, chod is more challenging way, challenging your ego directly, challenging yourself cherishing and everything directly. Because you focusing the emptiness of this, our perception. And you not talking further, you’re not talking further yourself as deity yer? Sometime a little bit maybe, but that’s not your main focus isn’t it. Ok that’s what I’m saying. Sometime in the chod you mix a little bit tantrayana, then you know like Vajrayogini, dah dah dah. It’s not, wasn’t like yourself is Vajrayogini, no. You know, remember. That’s why is not that. So Kalachakra practice, we focusing our self the true nature. Instead what is should be get rid of. In different way.

So let’s say, Kalachakra say, we are very, very poor person, let yourself, very, very poor person, struggle and incredible poverty your entire life. Somebody say “hey, under your small – you know you have very small house, small room, like India, and everywhere, you know small like this – under your…is plenty gold. We have to dig nine metres but you know, there is plenty gold”. Will you dig it? (laughs). You definitely dig, (laughs), there’s no doubt. But what saying, Kalachakra what saying? There is gold, you don’t have to poor any more, entire rest of your life you can be billionaire. Just keep…so don’t…you not really focusing, you digging, but you’re not focusing, “oh the digging is hard”. You not focusing this, you just focusing the gold. You thinking of the gold all the time and you doing this, this, this all the time ok. That is Kalachakra practise we are doing, or meant to be doing. Chod practice not saying there is gold, just saying get rid of those, and ok maybe get rid of this way better, maybe this way better, maybe this way better, maybe this way better. They don’t need, they are terrible they just get rid of. But not saying what is there.


Student – Just to summarise. See if I understand. So external level, the two that we are looking at, the wheel, or the time, which is the constant change. And wheel which is the never-ending cycle. That’s the external


Then we go deeper, we go internal level. The internal level, the time becomes, which is that unchanging, becomes emptiness, I mean ever changing emptiness, right?


And the wheel, which is the never ending cycle, is the interconnection which we call compassion?

No, if you go that way the wheel become completely the aspect of the enlightened appearances

At internal level

Internal level, oh ok,

Internal was emptiness and compassion right?


I so the time becomes emptiness the wheel become the compassion

Yer yer, because of the connection, remember, connectedness, yer

Then we go one level deeper, go into the pure level and we have Kalachakra and vishvamata. But now Kalachakra is the union, you said it was immutable bliss and…

That is the time

That’s time and wheel is the empty appearances?

(laughs) yer the wheel is yes, the wheel, yes, yes

So Kalachakra is the immutable bliss and vishvamata is empty appearances

Yes, all this ones not in the text, so just remember, (laughs)

(Can’t hear)

So tonight we talking is three purpose. One, for class, two, for book chapter, three documentary (laughs). Documentary, Joe didn’t set up camera but instead you have record so is ok. So we probably have to set up camera and talk again in little bit different way.

Student – What did you say was the ultimate….

Student – Time becomes Kalachakra which is immutable bliss, immutable great bliss and wheel becomes vishvamata, which is empty appearances form…..(can’t hear)

Student – And so the purpose of understanding this? By understanding this, what’s the, how are we meant to use this information?

What you think, guess.

(Can’t hear)

What from beginning I said. From beginning I start, what I say?

(Can’t hear)

Student – absolute truth

Absolute truth. The most important, the absolute truth is fullness. Is not just empty. Yes absent of samsara, absent of the ego, absent of all suffering everything. But not just absence, also have these qualities. So none of other schools, they don’t talk much about these qualities, they only talk about emptiness. So Kalachakra and Zhentong are the most talk about these qualities. That is one purpose.

The other purpose I said, if is full, is everything. You know oh Bodhicitta is you know, oh yer ok ultimate Bodhicitta is the Buddhahood, it is Buddha nature, it is the truth, many, many, how can be everything? The main point you have to understand, of course everything if is completely full, nothing missing, how cannot be everything, that’s my main point.

And the other points, nobody connecting these things. So the connection, they don’t talk about those things, the other texts. And even Kalachakra texts, I doubt say these things, I didn’t read all Kalachakra texts ok, honestly, but I have doubt. So, but we have to have….we have to realise how they connect, basically.

Student – When talking about the relationship between compassion and….. (Can’t hear….practise…

Yer, wheel of time you connected the physical world level, and then you can go further, you can see how connected.

(Still can’t hear)

Yer link, the interconnectedness. So think of that, so then you don’t forget ok.
Compassion, loving kindness all of them, the main points is interconnectedness. Yes. Of course interconnectedness, you know when you have feeling love and you know, compassion toward somebody, you feeling connect with them. You are not feeling disconnected with them yer? That’s what I’m saying.

Student – So are you saying (Can’t hear)….hard to explain…. if everything is basically empty, self nature, including our self, everything is apparently the same in a way, then showing compassion to others is exactly the same as showing compassion to yourself, if that makes sense. I’m not making sense am I…because…no forget it, I’ll explain it one day.


Student – You’re basically talking about everything is the same, it seem to be equal…(Can’t hear)

Student – Everything equal, showing compassion to others, if others are exactly the
same (Can’t hear)

Student – and therefore no reason to show compassion?

Student –No and therefore no reason not to.

(Can’t hear)


But you have to remember two truths. So everything is full, that is the ultimate level. The ultimate level there is no samsara. Why not there, because illusion, it never exist. Never truly exist. As same as this is, is there any solid no space at all, does that stick every exist? (laughs). James. There is such thing as stick, never space and no particles moving, does that stick ever exist?

Student – If you hit me on the head with it, I’ll say yes.


No, no, no, I’m talking about you know like…we have this conversation before, remember. I don’t know if you were there or not, but what I’m saying, I said, this particles all the time moving and constantly changing and a lot of space between them, are you, everybody, are you believe this or you believe is exactly as we see? Which one more strongly you believe? I ask whole class, everybody say they believe is moving, much more stronger. Do you have any doubt of this, and nobody have doubt. Today I ask again, does anybody have doubt, what scientists explained? Do you have any doubt? Just be honest, no problem. No doubt?

Student – I don’t doubt how it exists, but I believe it would hurt me…

Yer, what scientists saying, you have no struggle to believe. Anybody have struggle to believe the science? No, that means you believe more than what you seeing, isn’t it. But you never see them moving and space (laughs). True? So why you believe the other one more, something you don’t see, you have no capacity, but you still believe that, more than what you see. And you everyday using. You see, you believe the other one more? True? Why? Do you know why? Tell me.

Student – The other ones more… (Can’t hear)

Tell me, tell me, doesn’t matter if wrong. Tell me why

Student – We have seen at school under a microscope

Yer but that’s not real, that’s what you call, images

Student – It seems like the other is more truth, because the other is just appearances, everybody see…..

Students – they have really good arguments, they explain exactly why there is space and they draw really nice diagrams, pictures….

Yes, that’s exactly what I’m saying. Why you believe the other one even more than what you see? Because this one, if somebody debate, you can’t win. The other one, many good points to explain you, very good arguments, that’s why you believe isn’t it. Same thing, Buddhism you have to believe that way. Which one have more arguments, you have to believe that way or otherwise we are just stuck in samsara forever. (laugh) You know.

So that’s why in that case, in samsara, in ultimate truth, there is no samsara, not exist. Same as there is no such stick, have no particles, no space, never moving, never exist, but still we think is exist. You know we look, is exist, we touch still exist, we feel, it exists (laughs) yer? Same thing, is same thing isn’t it. So that’s why there is no sentient being there But we call still ultimate truth because what we in samsara, the best possibility this Bodhicitta, already fulfilled there. Maybe they don’t’ call it something like that. But we have to say this way because this is our communication. Does that make sense, ok (laughs). So before when you talking about, seems like you mixing the two truths, seems like, maybe.

Student – (Can’t hear)

That is usual, hundreds and hundreds years everybody mixing and still I’m listen the monks and they debate and I’m like ”ok, they mixing together all the time”. I’m just thinking all the time, if you don’t mix the two together, there is no argument. But if you mix this together, you have argue, argue, argue, argue and doubt, doubt, doubt, doubt, and argue, argue. (laughs).

So what I’m saying the Nyingma, Kagyu, Sakya, everybody, do they believe Buddha nature, yes. Everybody believe ok. Ok, do they believe ultimate truth, not you know…relative truth, they do both believe…two truth, then everybody yes. Then I’m saying what is wrong with you, you had Buddha nature, exactly as Buddha and when you are sentient being, why is wrong? People can’t believe that. The struggle is there. You know. And then little bit like sometimes they believe, sometime not believe, kind of like is not constant you know like, not so much constant. And then….so the Zhentong way, you just forgot from the beginning. You not scared of anything. Kind of like “why you scared of saying this?” That is how I feel. (laughs). That’s how I feel rantong. Sometimes you’re ok, almost, ok, ok, ok ok, this time good, good, good, good, almost you are there and then “ohhh” and then something (laughs) have to say, (laughs) then you a little bit hesitate, you know like something. Ok.